Curse

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 10, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Speaking in my official capacity as someone who, in your words, knows what he's talking about - trying to use Ward Against Melee to counter SA sins is retarded.

Vaga · Oct 10, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Pretty much any movement control is a good counter for SA sins, I'm not sure if thats too narrow really.

twicky_kid · Oct 10, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Speaking in my official capacity as someone who, in your words, knows what he's talking about - trying to use Ward Against Melee to counter SA sins is retarded.

I never said its a direct counter just one of many just like any other melee counter (you named some yourself). The main point of ward is to deny the Sin the energy he needs to continue using its combo. Without being able to land some auto attack crits you'll be out of energy after 2-3 combo links.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Pretty much any movement control is a good counter for SA sins, I'm not sure if thats too narrow really.

Crip shot is a very good counter. I had one sit on me all game once. Either I was crippled too much to keep up with the target or my combo would get interrupted. Granted the crip shot couldn't cripple the war's targets but it did trim down our offense quite a bit. If you need to buy some time or slow down a SA sin's offense crip shot is a good option as there are many others.

Master Ketsu · Oct 10, 2007, 02:51 AM // 02:51

SA sins are prime examples of the problem with the GW community. Everytime someone figures out the meta and makes a good counter-build, every n00b and a half has to whine about the new build being OP. Its like no one realizes that GW is based off of magic the gathering.

SA and Assassins remedy are not OP. Have people forgotten about how versatile cripshot rangers are ? What about Hexes ?

Seamus Finn · Oct 10, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

It does not block the daggers but it does add 24 armor for you. That is pretty hefty reduction to the already small dmg from daggers.

Sins get dangerous from the +damage form attack skills. Of course, I don't have to tell you that sins can use slashing daggers to negate the armor advantage... or do I?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

That is probably where we differ. From reading your posts, it's clear that your issue is with the combo itself, and you feel it should be nerfed into oblivion. While I have no problem with heavily nerfing skills that I feel are bad for the game, SA sins can make a good impact if they're made a little more counterable.

I played that bar I think a month or so before they became popular. I ran the chain with a conjure so I couldn't use zeaous tengs but I imagine the soldier's D sins do, and my experience has bee that zealous an +2 crits is still very strong emanagement. Anyhow, I found the chain to be a little light on damage(whenever I've been at the stand against these guys my observation has been mostly that unless the sins were converged on a single target, you could deal with the pressure and no one would die.. of course I was split a lot so I suppose my opinion isn't as valid as the stand monks). The sins in practice make me think smited derv train, and what I dislike about them is exactly the same thing: they basically ignore the foundation of the game's defense and so I think they are about as "good for the game" as blood spike. It may be fun now to laugh at the people who sit on their ass in a ward, with aegis and DA up and explode, but the sins are basically just as degenerate against a build that people would think "respectable". They aren't a "hard counter to block party builds" as much as they are a mindless loophole around monks, midliners and almost everything inbetween. Generally builds that are made so that you don't have to play the game strike me as degenerate.

For people who say, "give the meta time to adjust" the same could be said for hw much more degnerate these sins will become. They aren't really a single dimensional character: they cannot be blocked or protted in 3 skills. Ask yourself how many ways there are to abuse this mechanic and compare that to how many counters will be viable. Then when we are playing buffed sin train vs hex way ask yourself if this really was a welcome change to the meta.

My suggestion... probably make shattering assault blockable. Buff the damage if you want it to rape SoR eles and buff nine tails recharge to match the wild and fox offhand and lead.

pah01 · Oct 10, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Seamus as far as I am aware the armor bonus is only vs projectiles and doesnt affect the daggers anyway.

Joe

twicky_kid · Oct 10, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Seamus as far as I am aware the armor bonus is only vs projectiles and doesnt affect the daggers anyway.

Joe

Gives armor vs peircing dmg. You can switch to an elemental dagger to avoid the armor bonus from shields up.

moriz · Oct 10, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

SA sins are prime examples of the problem with the GW community. Everytime someone figures out the meta and makes a good counter-build, every n00b and a half has to whine about the new build being OP. Its like no one realizes that GW is based off of magic the gathering.

SA and Assassins remedy are not OP. Have people forgotten about how versatile cripshot rangers are ? What about Hexes ?

on the forums, cripshots can always dshot a combo, and everyone will run the perfect counter to everything. however, this does not always happen in game.

listing a bunch of counters to a build does not make the build non-overpowered. if anything, it just proves that it IS overpowered since we'll need to make specific changes to counter it.

pah01 · Oct 10, 2007, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Gives armor vs peircing dmg. You can switch to an elemental dagger to avoid the armor bonus from shields up.

No it doesnt

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiki

"Shields Up!"

For 5...10 seconds, you and all party members within earshot gain 24 armor against piercing damage and 50% chance to block incoming projectile attacks.

Notes

The armor bonus actually applies versus all projectiles, not versus piercing damage.

See Shields up doesnt affect daggers.

Joe

Riotgear · Oct 10, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

SA and Assassins remedy are not OP. Have people forgotten about how versatile cripshot rangers are ? What about Hexes ?

If you can keep a warrior frontline clean of cripple and hexes, which you obviously can, you can do the same for an assassin frontline.

I'm not saying SA builds are overpowered, I think it's too early to make that call, I said that I'm worried that it's going to spawn offenses dedicated towards mindless training similar to when Grenth was popular. The fact that they destroy the current meta is worrying because if they're able to pound people through the thick layers of defense currently present, what are they going to do when passive defense takes a hit?

I'm particularly worried because the upcoming balance is due soon, so if they DO become a problem, it's going to be months before they're fixed. They need to be watched closely and reacted to if they become a problem... too bad the failure to do that has been responsible for so many problems already.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 10, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

The sins in practice make me think smited derv train, and what I dislike about them is exactly the same thing: they basically ignore the foundation of the game's defense and so I think they are about as "good for the game" as blood spike. It may be fun now to laugh at the people who sit on their ass in a ward, with aegis and DA up and explode, but the sins are basically just as degenerate against a build that people would think "respectable". They aren't a "hard counter to block party builds" as much as they are a mindless loophole around monks, midliners and almost everything inbetween. Generally builds that are made so that you don't have to play the game strike me as degenerate.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that SA sins aren't "playing the game." They're playing the same game as everyone else. They simply get around one aspect of the defense people run. It's no different from saying that Melandru dervishes aren't playing the game because they're immune to blinds and cripples, or that paragons aren't playing the game because they're difficult for physicals to pressure.

You run characters because they give you ways to defeat the enemy's defenses. That's how Guild Wars works. The question here is whether SA sins are too good at what they do. I would argue that yes, they are, but that hitting Assassin's remedy would reduce their power enough to make the character balanced with other forms of offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

For people who say, "give the meta time to adjust" the same could be said for hw much more degnerate these sins will become. They aren't really a single dimensional character: they cannot be blocked or protted in 3 skills.

Neither of those sentences made a bit of sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I'm not saying SA builds are overpowered, I think it's too early to make that call, I said that I'm worried that it's going to spawn offenses dedicated towards mindless training similar to when Grenth was popular.

It's definitely a concern, though the key difference between SA sins and Grenth is that SA sins can only train effectively with other SA sins. You can't team an SA sin with a warrior and expect the sin to pull all the prots off a target, because the duration between enchantment removals is too long. You end up building your frontline completely out of SA sins, and those characters lose a lot of the inherent advantages other forms of melee bring to the table.

Despite this, I agree that it's too early to call. We'll see.

Living Parasite · Oct 10, 2007, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

You can't team an SA sin with a warrior and expect the sin to pull all the prots off a target.

Removing two enchantments every 6-8 seconds is VERY good and if needed a mesmer can Shatter any remaining enchantment. And, comparing any enchant removal to pre-nerf Grenth is unfair to say the least.

Riotgear · Oct 10, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

It's definitely a concern, though the key difference between SA sins and Grenth is that SA sins can only train effectively with other SA sins. You can't team an SA sin with a warrior and expect the sin to pull all the prots off a target, because the duration between enchantment removals is too long. You end up building your frontline completely out of SA sins, and those characters lose a lot of the inherent advantages other forms of melee bring to the table.

I think pulling prots off is just one component, it's essentially an overload build designed to throw out lots of unmitigatable damage. Once you've got the prots down, which would probably only take a copy of Corrupt and maybe Rending Touch if you've already got an SA, it's just an objective of forcing as much through as possible. Smiting works because it's hard to shut down even if the damage is less-than-spectacular, more SA's works for the same reason, warriors are still prone to blinds, DA and Ward.

You really do need 2 to be effective, but those two are putting out respectable damage and leaving the targets wide-open for the rest of the team. If DA/Ward take a hit (or Leadership, AR, or Glyph, which would do the same thing), you probably could slot a warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

And, comparing any enchant removal to pre-nerf Grenth is unfair to say the least.

The fact that it's even reminding me of Grenth is scary, and cause enough to keep an eye on it.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 10, 2007, 05:54 AM // 05:54

if linebacking frontline is how you beat cow, I'm pretty sure you can beat SA sins the same way.

That being said, It's clearly a problematic template.

Seamus Finn · Oct 10, 2007, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I don't know where you're getting the idea that SA sins aren't "playing the game." They're playing the same game as everyone else. They simply get around one aspect of the defense people run. It's no different from saying that Melandru dervishes aren't playing the game because they're immune to blinds and cripples, or that paragons aren't playing the game because they're difficult for physicals to pressure.

Saying they are a way to not play the game is just my way of saying they completely ignore apects of the game that are a great deal larger than "blind" (and at this point easily include blind). And "difficult for physicals to pessure" really isn't very comparable to unblockable/unprottable/unblindable(which is far more than one aspect of the game). I mean, you can say playing bloodspike is simply "finding a way to beat the opponent" and be right, but someone else would jsut say they are finding a way to not reall have to apply even the most basic elements of the game to defeat an opponent and thus be finding a way "to no play the game." SA sins, to a lesser extent, fall into this category for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Neither of those sentences made a bit of sense.

Outside of the typos, I was basically just pointing out that the characters won't end up as a one trick pony with an achilles heal and aren't now. As time goes on, I believe it will be just as easy to find new ways to support/exploit the build as there may be viable universal counters(and probably more). ... Makes sense to me.

Vaga · Oct 10, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

I agree it's far too early to say if they are extremely overpowered or not. There are a reasonable amount of general counters to them but it is just one more thing you need to fit in to your already tight for skill slots balanced build.

glountz · Oct 10, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Ya know, we use SA sins in GvG as a split character (then when adverse base is cleared as anti-enchant/block feature).
Often we meet the water ele flagger. Then, Blurred vision comes and we are in trouble.
SA sins are interesting. But hexes still own them.

kitiara · Oct 10, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The question here is whether SA sins are too good at what they do. I would argue that yes

Personally Squid I think your going in the wrong direction with this. What they need to do is buff SA sins SRSLY. Make assassins remedy do the same thing to hexes as conditions. Make Golden fox/Wild Strike/Shatter Assault cripple on hit for 10 seconds. Also make wild strike KD your target as well as strip stances. Then MAYBE SA sins will be Imba.

PS sarcasm doesnt come throught very well when your typing... Also squid why are you still trying to talk to these people they dont want to listen (I hear ward against melee blocks attack skills with the discription "Cannot be blcoked").

PSS implement my buffs To the SA sin then life can get interesting again.

Shmanka · Oct 10, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I am a personal fan of the assasin split SA runs, it reminds me of how splits should be done. Although simple positionary tactics (which people lack) is a huge counter to the build, not the only one but very effective. It's a back to basics build which is the best thing about it.

Greedy Gus · Oct 10, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I am a personal fan of the assasin split SA runs, it reminds me of how splits should be done. Although simple positionary tactics (which people lack) is a huge counter to the build, not the only one but very effective. It's a back to basics build which is the best thing about it.

Hasn't SA been running 5/3 split since they were DAii, always relying on the easiest skills to use like recall and instagib sins?